How the Rumen Works with Rob Bell

Understanding the rumen is a key part of being a top-performing producer. While we might think of them as herbivores, Rob explains it’s a little more complex than that.

“They're more what we'd call a ‘fermentivore’. What they actually digest is the sludge and the byproducts of bacterial fermentation,” explains Rob.

“If we think about everything in the context of what we put down an animal's throat and how it impacts fermentation - how does it influence bug populations and then the resulting outcome of that fermentation? That is what really drives both the production and the profitability of enterprises.”

Rob does a great job of explaining more about this and the processes that go on inside the rumen and how we can best manage the rumen pH and the fermentation process for optimum production.

Rob and Mark also discuss grain feeding and various crops and the impact of those feeds on how the rumen functions.

By the end of this podcast, you will have a better understanding of how to work alongside the rumen to maximise your production on-farm.

If you haven’t listened to our previous podcast with Rob, ‘Successful weaning practices’, listen here: https://www.nextgenagri.com/articles/successful-weaning-practices-with-rob-bell

Head Shepherd is brought to you by neXtgen Agri International Limited, we help livestock farmers get the most out of the genetics they farm with. Get in touch with us if you would like to hear more about how we can help you do what you do best - info@nextgenagri.com

Thanks to our sponsors at MSD Animal Health and Allflex, and Heiniger Australia and New Zealand. Please consider them when making product choices, as they are instrumental in enabling us to bring you this podcast each week.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Head Shepherd podcast. I'm your host, mark Ferguson, ceo here at NextGen Agri International, where we help livestock managers get the best out of their stock Before we get started. Thank you to our two fantastic sponsors for continuing to sponsor this podcast. Msd Animal Health is perhaps better known as Cooper's Animal Health in Australia and for their Allflex range across the world with a comprehensive suite of animal health and management products. Heinegger is a one-stop shop for wool harvesting and animal fibre removal. The Heinegger team have a deep understanding of livestock agriculture, backed by Swiss engineering and a family business dedicated to manufacturing the best. We are grateful to our sponsors for their support, helping us bring Head Shepherd to you each week, and now it's time to get on with this week's episode. Welcome back to Head Shepherd. We're getting a few scanning results coming out of Australia, with a few gaps in where lambs are being conceived, which sparked a conversation around heat stress. So if you've done a bit of reading and checked out what could be happening, yeah, we looked at.

Speaker 2: 0:57

We were discussing this in our live hub event last week and I came across a paper which is the review of the impact of heat stress on reproductive performance on sheep. So obviously answering some questions for us. So basically, heat stress is classed as anything below 12 degrees and over 32 degrees. You can probably assume that heat stress will disrupt fertility and use, semen quality in rams and embryonic development in lambs. So it's like an overreaching effect really on fertility. So in this paper I will preface this by saying that if nighttime temperatures drop significantly, a lot of these effects aren't as significant. Unfortunately the paper doesn't tell us what that significant drop is, but luckily for us we're having the author of the paper on the podcast in a few weeks so we can ask him then. But back to the results.

Speaker 2: 1:44

If we start with the use, trials show that the heat stress most effects use in the five days leading up to ovulation and the first five days after ovulation. Heat stress after day eight of ovulation didn't affect fertility. So heat stress also reduces the duration of estrus. How much it's shortened depend on the timing of the heat stress, with trials showing a reduction in estrus behavior between eight to five hours, so eight to five hours less time that they're standing and cycling for the REM. And it can also impact the whole cycle length, making it longer by nearly two days in some cases. One trial showed that for every additional day above 32 degrees that's prolonged exposure lambing percentages decreased by around 3%. So a lot of this is down to, like, the follicle development in the youth and that being disrupted.

Speaker 2: 2:34

And you know these are all of the knock-on effects and because of that there's also a knock-on effect on lamb birth weight because of poor placental development and everything that goes alongside that. And then there's also effects on lab survival and growth, with heat stress in various parts of pregnancy. And then, finally, the semen quality. As we know, it's sort of the 60 days leading up to mating where the semen's being made. So heat stress in any part of that 60 days can cause issues with the amount of sperm motility and structural abnormalities. So there's a lot going on and there's so many numbers and figures that I could throw at you, but we're going to have William on the podcast in a few weeks. So, yeah, that should be not too short, but a bit of a teaser for you.

Speaker 1: 3:21

Excellent. So, yeah, it's going to be great to have that chat. We're hearing plenty of reports and I remember Brett Smith on the live mentioning lighter birth weights, and that's obviously been then shown in that paper as well. So, yeah, lots of interesting area there. Obviously, people can throw some questions. Jump on the hub and put some questions into us. We've got that interview coming up so if you get in quick, we can tailor those questions we ask so that if you've got any burning things you'd love to know, we can make sure we ask those questions. So jump on the hub and put those in there. That'd be awesome.

Speaker 1: 3:49

This week on the podcast, we welcome back Rob Bell. Rob's the co-founder and CTO at ProAgni and we have a really great chat around managing the rumen fermentation process, really, which is what we're doing when we're managing ruminant nutrition. He's a really great guy to explain some pretty complex science in a way that all of us can understand, which is fantastic. So I really enjoyed this chat with Rob. As I mentioned in the podcast, if you haven't gone back and listened to his weiner one, we talked about weaning process. That was a great podcast as well. Most people enjoyed that, but this one's a really, really great foundation in how to manage room and nutrition and and why managing ph is a really important part of that. Right, I will get underway with the interview with rob bell.

Speaker 3: 4:33

Welcome rob bell back to head shepherd thanks, sir, good to be uh back on head shepherd excellent mate.

Speaker 1: 4:39

We don't get many people. Two goes. You must have been all right first time but um, we've. We have had great feedback on on the weaning episode. If you haven't listened to that, anybody out there jump on and listen to rob's chat on on weaning. But today we thought we'd sort of focus, I guess, more on general nutrition and, uh, depending on where people are, there's I guess there's always different seasonal systems, but particularly our new zealand listeners have been through a pretty tough dry time in parts of Aussie too. I guess it's a pretty broad topic, but I guess key strategies during dry times. Rob, what are we looking at?

Speaker 3: 5:15

When you reached out to have this conversation, ferg, I really thought about it from a perspective of going back to the core principles of how those animals work and just sort of trying to paint a picture of what we need to consider, what we need to think about and it doesn't matter whether it's wet, dry or in between. I guess we've been conditioned over the years to think about these animals as you know, herbivores. You know they eat grass and digest grass. But you know, the way I think we should be thinking about it is they're a little bit more specialised than that and they're more of a what we'd call, say, a fermentable. So what they actually digest is is the sludge and the and the byproducts of bacterial fermentation.

Speaker 3: 5:51

So if we think about everything in context of what we put down an animal's throat and how it impacts on fermentation, how does it influence bug populations, and then the resulting outcome of that fermentation is what really drives both the production and the profitability of enterprises, and it doesn't matter whether it's here in New Zealand or anywhere in between. A ruminant, basically, is a ruminant that relies upon a really diverse microbial population to drive fermentation that drives the byproducts of growth and protein. So these bugs and these bacteria sit in that foregut of the ruminant and produce around 80% of all the energy and all the protein that the animal uses. So, going back to those cores around, you know whether it was dry feeding or production feeding supplementation around. You know how well does that product. Ferment is most probably the key consideration at every decision point.

Speaker 1: 6:43

Yeah, good point and yeah, I guess the key factors there are. Well, for most of the time it's digestibility of that feed in terms of grass, and then energy content, protein content if it's a supplement. But it's all about making sure that you've got a healthy room and make sure it's buffering appropriately with roughage if you haven't got it. So, yeah, I mean, particularly this time of year where people are going from maybe a concentrate-heavy feed where they've got a bit of rain, they'll be going on to setting them out onto something that's 85-plus water and they're actually running around and actually need a bit of roughage. All those things have got to keep being considered.

Speaker 3: 7:21

Yeah, it really gets back to to, I think about how we understand the measurements that go against. You know the parameters. So, whether it's megajoules of energy, whether it's crude protein, if we understand what that actually means, I think it gives us an insight on how to select and choose what sort of components we need to add to to round out the fermentation pattern. And I always think about it a little bit coarsely, I guess, is that if we we understand what a megajoule of energy is, as you know, if we took our mobile phone and lifted it a meter and then dropped it, that's effectively jewel. It's about a measure of energy and work. And similarly, I like to think about it then in terms of a heat side of things, is it's how well does something burn to raise, raise water temperature, and so start to think about it from its digestibility, like you said. So things like NDF in that feed can play a really important role in total intakes. And then the digestibility, so how much of it is actually being utilized from an energy perspective.

Speaker 3: 8:17

And then, if we think about the protein side of things, is, you know, animal requirements for protein, in my opinion, get overdone considerably a lot of the time.

Speaker 3: 8:26

A newborn animal.

Speaker 3: 8:27

20%, 22% is where it sort of peaks out at and as we get down to a dry animal in a dry phase of production, we're back to 7% and 8% crude protein levels.

Speaker 3: 8:37

But the real key, important point around that is crude protein is only actually using a multiplication of the nitrogen component of that food to give us a number.

Speaker 3: 8:46

So if we understand that it's actually only a reflection of nitrogen, not a reflection of the quality of that protein and proteins made up of essential amino acids, basically that work together to give us our building blocks for production and our proteins, which are meat, milk, wool and and fiber and new progeny, so understanding that energy is not energy and protein is not protein, we need to think about it from that perspective of how's it going to interact within that fermentation tank of the animal and what are those bacteria species going to do with that in terms of the style of fermentation that it'll produce.

Speaker 3: 9:20

And I guess the classic that when we see concentration feeding of high grain diets, we start to drop highly fermentable carbohydrates in there and they are fantastic for fermentation, but the byproducts of fermentation then become a real risk to the animal and the profit of the business through things like subclinical and clinical lactic acidosis, where dead sheep, dead cattle are a real common outcome from that. So understanding when we make a decision, how well does it ferment and how do we manage that fermentation, is critical.

Speaker 1: 9:49

Yeah, and I reckon we're definitely about to get to grain feeding. I guess just one thing I think people have maybe thought, when they've seen really high production of legumes, that that's because of the protein component of that feed that's driving that production, whereas really it's often that's the digestibility of those legumes what's driving the production of those feeds, and so people kind of get this link from protein to production, whereas there's definitely a link from legumes to production. But most of that's about lack of fiber and stuff in those legumes and they can really easily digestible.

Speaker 3: 10:21

Well, I mean, you take a feed test and one of the first numbers I always look for is NDF, so neutral detergent fiber, because it's a real indicator of intakes. So the rough rule of thumb is 120 divided by NDF gives us percentage of body weight intake. So a dried, paid off mature type of pasture with an NDF of 60%. 120 divided by 60 is only 2% of body weight intake. Where we cut something back to like a rapidly growing legume where NDFs could be sub 30. We're starting to see three 4% of body weight intake. It's a huge difference in intake as a result of that.

Speaker 1: 11:00

Yeah, yeah, so yeah, moving on. Moving on to grain, and I think this year more than any I've sort of heard people that are feeding grain, maybe not for the first time, but certainly early on it, particularly in New Zealand where it has been dry and in places that would normally not have to worry about feeding grain. But I guess a lot of people probably fumbling and feeling their way on kind of how much to feed, and I think we underestimate, like people kind of think, well, they've gone, all right, I haven't killed any to feed. And I think we underestimate, like people kind of think, well, they've gone, all right, I haven't killed any. But the subclinical acidosis can be as damaging to productivity and profitability If you've got a whole mob, that's sort of a bit crook versus actually tipping some over the edge. It's equally as bad or can be as bad. I guess recommendations around introducing feed and I'm keen to hear about the role of the pro-agony product in introducing grain or maintaining that healthy fermentation in the rumen.

Speaker 3: 11:58

I was taught a very good lesson early on. It's dead. Sheep are cheap to feed. You know it's the sick ones that cost us a lot of money. So you know the cost of subclinical acidosis I think is completely underestimated.

Speaker 3: 12:12

And if we talk about it from a fermentation perspective is is the rumen never gets bored. It is just relying on being this stable, comfortable environment for bacteria, fungi, protozoa to do their job, which is to to pull carbohydrates apart and then reassemble them into volatile fatty acids and new bugs effectively. When we start to add highly fermentable carbohydrates in there, as little as 200 or 300 grams of grain in a sheep can basically double the number of bacteria in that room. You start to talk about 10 to the 6th, 10 to the 7th, so pretty large numbers of microbes in there on a dry feed scenario. If we double that we start to get to 10 to the 14th. It's a huge population expansion over a really quick timeframe. So when we do that, those bugs start to pull those rapidly fermentable carbohydrates apart. They then start to release compounds like lactic acid. That lactic acid then changes the ruminal pH. That ruminal pH changes the environment of the rumen and bacterial species are really sensitive to those changes and they start to die. So when we start to see a massive increase in fermentation and an increased spike in lactic acid production, rumen pH drops, bacterial species die and they start to wash through the rumen really quick. So the end result in that is a smelly, grey, runny feces and it's basically just a bucket load of dead bacteria, which are our profit drivers in the business.

Speaker 3: 13:37

So when we approach nutrition, I think the first thing we need to think about is how do we stabilize, how do we maintain fermentation, how do we introduce changes to diet carefully? And for me it's always about this stepping up of a little bit often is a great way rather than a large amount once. So typically in a feeding program we'll start to feed at 50, 70 grams per head per day increments just to step those animals up. And it's as much about the change fermentation patterns as it is in the change of social behavior within those animals. And I've become really reluctant to increase increments of grain much beyond sort of 75 grams per head per day until we have, you know, 90 of those animals eating and eating well, because we we need to educate, train, uh, and I guess reinforce the process that naive animals are the ones that will absolutely die. Because if you have 10% of the mob that aren't feeding and they progressively get hungrier and hungrier at day six or seven or eight or nine and we're starting to see 300, 400 grams of grain in front of those animals on an individual basis a naive animal that eats that, it's basically guaranteed to die. So from a practical standpoint I'm always about slow, incremental adjustments and frequency. So a little bit often up to three or four times a day, is a great way to step forward.

Speaker 3: 14:55

The side of subclinical acidosis that I think people don't value enough is the role that really good, high-quality buffering plays in that. And you alluded to the pro-agony side of things. We've spent the last eight years really trying to understand how can we maintain stability of fermentation and optimize this ph range so that the bugs are sort of comfortable and can digest and ferment this food at a rate of knots that allows it to be utilized as volatile fatty acids and not be converted to lactic acid, which is our real enemy in that grain feeding system. So you know the amount of work, the amount of research, the collaboration we've had with a lot of institutes, both domestically here and overseas, is really starting to show that the tighter that pH banding that we can get, the better outcomes in terms of quality of volatile fatty acids but also the volume. So the more volatile fatty acids we have, the more energy that's available for that animal. But it also outcompletes lactic acid production, so you sort of get the ratios around the right way.

Speaker 3: 15:54

So once we start to do that, we smooth out, I guess, some of the stress points within digestion where any toxins that are produced in the body tend to go through the liver for filtration. So the liver's a really interesting organ is that it's responsible for filtering the blood, but it also stores and manufactures and regulates the things like vitamin A and vitamin D and vitamin E which are real key drivers around immunity. So when we have an animal that's under stress nutritionally and has sort of levels of metabolic distress, the liver function goes really high. Its ability to regulate key nutrients for immunity become less successful. And the next thing we know we've got a lot of sick animals. Things like respiratory disease, coughs, snotty noses, pink eye are all just an outcome of subclinical acidosis that hasn't been managed well, primarily due to the immunity function not being able to kick in at the right pace.

Speaker 3: 16:50

So I guess that's where we're really focused is how do we dovetail liver health, managing ruminal pH and then maximizing animal production from a stability of fermentation to really drive what these animals are capable of. It really leads into the pressure that we're seeing from an industry globally that our efficiencies are being targeted. So we are responsible for lifting our efficiencies and you know if the best way to lift efficiencies is manage it better, but it drives our profitability but then can actually take the spotlight off us on some of the environmental what's the word, to be politically correct pressure that we're having applied to us as a red meat and remnant sector, both intensively and extensively. Yeah, it's a very complicated space, but I think if we can control which is in our farm gate, our animals at home, and make more money by being efficient, by managing these animals in a way that are welfare-wise, healthy and safe, everything else seems to fall in line behind it.

Speaker 1: 17:54

Yeah, I think a really good point. I think that whole yeah, we are here to make more money, essentially, or help farmers make more money, and a healthy rumen is the way to achieve that yeah, they are just rumens on legs, really. I guess, practically what does that mean in terms of getting a buffer into the diet, and how, when, what, how much? I guess, without getting into too much detail. But, yeah, what's the some out there? Practically what does this mean?

Speaker 3: 18:22

Look. A normal recommendation is we've got a product called Protect S and Protect C S for sheep, c for cattle, 5% inclusion basically covers off vitamins, minerals and buffering. It's pretty simple and it's designed to be simple Two bags to the ton type of mixing. Really, we don't want to create jobs, we don't want to create headaches, we want to make it simple, really, just focusing on having the comfort that this is really good science. That's not.

Speaker 3: 18:51

I hate the word snake oil, but there is a lot of products out there that claim things that don't have the science to back it up. We've spent a lot of time and money validating, getting science and getting proof around what we're trying to achieve, because I was frustrated as a consultant in the industry that there's so many claims being made but no data to back it up. So we've gone down that path so that producers can pick it up off the shelf and know that there is a product out there that does have the science to back up its claims. And the other point that I think is really relevant in this is the way markets are trending, particularly with our export trends overseas is the use of things like ionophores. So you know, you've tried known products like remencin and bovitec, um, they are becoming less and less acceptable in, you know, overseas export markets.

Speaker 3: 19:36

So part of the challenge we saw, you know, seven or eight years ago is how do we pull them out and do it safely? So you know, they are basically antibiotic compounds, so they kill bacteria, so they actually they may make the animal safe, but how well does it contribute to to our productivity in terms of, you know, microbial diversity and and total volatile fatty acid production and all those sort of things? So we've really taken that pull through consumer angle seriously that our export markets are highly valuable for us. You know, in australia 75 of red meat is exported and we need to be able to adapt to consumer demands. The likes of Europe, the US, they are just even China they're really starting to put the hammer down, saying we do not want these compounds in our food, so we needed some solutions. So that's, I guess, the space we've been working on is making the rumen feeding safe in intensive feeding systems and then doing it without basically antibiotics cool.

Speaker 1: 20:31

So I'm just going to go back and chat antibiotics in terms of industry use of ionophores or antibiotics, the. You just told us how important rumen bacteria are. Now you're telling us we're feeding stuff to kill rumen bacteria. Tell us what they do and and why. Why that? Why why that's a strategy.

Speaker 3: 20:49

Well, I mean, they're a pretty poor class of bacteria. You have gram-negative, you have gram-positive. There's two basic classes of bacteria and they're designed to kill one of them. They're an ion disruptor, so they basically destroy the cell walls, and that is not only of the bad bacteria that produce lactic acid, but they also impact the diversity of a lot of other species. And that's a lot of the work we've been playing with is how do we use the latest gene technology to understand who's in the zoo and what their roles are? So it's been a really interesting journey.

Speaker 3: 21:22

But the real core is getting stability of pH, because if we get stability of pH we actually don't have these fluctuations of highs and lows. So we don't go from a pH, you know, happy rumen space is 6.2, 6.3, and we start to feed and we drop down to mid-5s and then those animals don't eat and they feel a bit crook and then that rumen pH goes up to plus 7. It's this real rollercoaster effect that, if we can narrow that band, we've been able to show that the use of antibiotics aren't needed because we're not having the proliferation of the nasties on that rollercoaster. So the faster it falls, the faster that things like strep bovis proliferate. So that's been and that's been, I guess, some of the key learnings that we've been able to use with. You know a combination of gene technology and real-time bolus monitoring in rumens, where we can see pH in real time.

Speaker 1: 22:14

Very cool. So I'm assuming in a cattle feedlot the product's always in there. Is it the same? If you're grain feeding sheep Like do you, is this something you do or you don't do that?

Speaker 3: 22:28

No, look, it's all the way through. And it comes from the point that we're not only trying to manage acidosis, we're all trying to minimize the oxidative stress through that liver process. We're trying to make sure we've got maximized health. So all the vitamins and minerals that drive production are in that system all the way through. And if we think about a bug population, they live on average for three or four hours. So we're effectively dealing with a new colony every, you know, three or four times a day. So we've got to re-instigate that feeding process and we just need to keep on top of the nasty bugs all the way through. I guess is the easiest way to think about it. So yeah, it's a consistent practice all the way through. I guess is the easiest way to think about it. So, yeah, it's a consistent practice all the way through.

Speaker 1: 23:10

And so it's in a form that sorry, I should have asked these questions pre-interview maybe, but there's good anyway. But it's in a pellet form or something, so they're going to pick it up off a trail. It's not yeah a pellet.

Speaker 1: 23:33

Yeah, it's a post-pelleted crumb, so it's actually slightly smaller than a whole pellet, but, yeah, picks up off the crumb. Uh, trail, no worries, and they happily eat it. It's got something in there to drive them to. Yeah, yep, quite, quite palatable, yep, yeah, awesome. So we've covered it a bit, but worth, I guess, reiterating in terms of supplements, people are feeding, so whether they're choosing a grain or or a hay or silage or whatever it is, I guess it can never hurt to say it Again the importance of getting a test on that stuff. So you know the NDF, I mean the grain. You're probably not stressed about the NDF, but anything that's not grain, but even grains. I mean oats aren't oats and barley ain't barley. There can be a fair variation there. Do you recommend people getting tests on them or only on fodder?

Speaker 3: 24:08

Yeah, I totally agree. Fibre, absolutely Things like megajoules of energy, crude protein, starch and NDF in haze and fodder. The most interesting test for me in the grain sector is actually test weight, test weight and protein. So as protein increases, starch decreases. So everyone thinks if they buy a high-protein grain it's better. It's actually the other way around. So the lower the protein, the higher the test weight, the higher the starch, because starch and protein are inversely related. So we're really chasing the same thing as our friends the maltsters that make our beer. It's really about highly formidable carbohydrates. So good, heavy, good heavy grain with a low protein is is what I'll always choose. Um, when we start to do diets and just going back to your comment on oats, I mean oats is a intriguing that, yeah, the opposite grade to barley is feed.

Speaker 1: 25:19

Yet molting is better than feed.

Speaker 3: 25:21

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, but I guess we said a lot in aust, a lot in Australia with the wheat sector. We're getting 16% and 17% wheat and everyone thinks they're buying great wheat because of the protein. Well, if it's 16% or 17%, I can tell you the starch levels aren't going to be there to drive production. So our food efficiency is going to fall out of bed really quick. So I'd rather pay an extra $20 or $30 and go up a grade and come back to a 12% wheat with a 65, 68 hectolitre test weight. Then, yeah, that higher protein a little bit cheaper.

Speaker 1: 25:55

So ME? So that won't be reflected in ME. That's reflected in test weight. Yes, in the starch content.

Speaker 3: 26:03

Yeah, yeah, and you've just got to think about volume. You know, it's endosperm competing with space for starch.

Speaker 1: 26:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:17

Yeah. So what's a good test weight to look for? Uh, 65, 68, 70s, if we can get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, high test weight low crude protein.

Speaker 1: 26:23

Yeah, yeah, different story if you're feeding, like if you're feeding a young sheep and you're putting 30% lupins in that diet to get a bit of protein in there. Or are we only doing that because it's a good energy source really?

Speaker 3: 26:36

Well, it's more about amino acid profiling. You know the amino acid profiling of cereal grains is pretty ordinary for growth, but the starch content is fantastic for fermentation. So pulses and meals particularly have a fantastic uh ammonia amino acid ratio to drive um protein synthesis within those animals. So you know, typically a lamb feedlot diet for me is 75 wheat or barley, 20 lupins and 5 protect s. That's. That's a bog standard feedlot type diet in my life.

Speaker 1: 27:13

Maybe if we just get into the real specifics of grain introduction, as in how long and I think your raw thumb is good 75. So if you haven't got them all on the trail, then don't feed more than 75 grams a head per day. But are you like a 50-50, 100-100, 150-150 sort of? Or how fast do you climb that curve?

Speaker 3: 27:31

Yeah, I let the sheep a little bit and the cattle tell me, but sheep specifically, you know I'll tend to climb that curve reasonably quick after day four or five, once we've got animals behavior feeding well. So if we can get to 300 grams, split morning and night, so 150, 150 by day five, day six, I'm reasonably comfortable to go up in sort of 100, 100 gram increments post that. So yeah, so sort of eight to ten days will generally be a solid food lot induction and if I see any dramas along the way through, we'll just, we'll either hold or step back a day. Just, you know it's we, we can get to the edge, but we don't want to step over it. The bar, like I always think about it from bar bar, bright, alert, responsive, have a look at their eyes, have a look at their ears, head down.

Speaker 3: 28:14

If we're seeing any of that, uh, if there's a slight scare, if it's any runnier than toothpaste, really just start to go. Hang on. What are we? What are our early signs of seeing? Not an issue, but we are starting to step towards the edge of the cliff. Let's, let's be sensible and step back a day or two. It's not gonna. I'd rather step back a day or two than tip over or or cause scarring on the room, and which will impact us on the whole feeding program yeah, I think I don't know.

Speaker 1: 28:38

I've seen plenty of examples where you're kind of three weeks later you're back to kind of you're gonna feed for six weeks and then three weeks in you're actually back to starting live work because you've been through some induction program, didn't work that well and half and got crook and you actually made no ground and you've spent money and you and you haven't got long to feed them from there, kind of thing no, no, and you know, at the moment I think we'd be running close to 500 a ton in australia.

Speaker 3: 29:03

for, for a decent ration, 480, something.80, something like that, so $0.48, $0.50 a kilo.

Speaker 1: 29:10

Yeah, you don't want to throw it out the window. Final thing, Rob, just that, splitting the day up. So everyone loves efficiency and getting jobs done fast, but obviously when it comes to keeping that room and balance sorted, little and often is obviously what you started this podcast with. But worth reiterating that if we can split it two or three times rather than give them a chunk every single time, whatever it is, particularly in that induction period- Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 29:37

I think I'm too busy, I haven't got enough time. I think that's a BS. If you're serious about animal welfare, if you're serious about making money and you're serious about doing a good job, a little bit of effort. And you know, at that early stage, if we're starting to look at, you know, mob dynamics, where we've got pens of 250 or 300 head, it's literally a bucket of rain. It's not bagging. You know, it's not physically demanding it. It's a really simple process. You know, yeah, I think it's a basic excuse to say, oh, it's not efficient to do it. It's a week or 10 days out of your life where you've got an opportunity to either tear up a heap of money or really capture some good values.

Speaker 1: 30:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, feed them before breakfast and feed them again having a beer after work, and it'll be fine, absolutely Excellent. All right, rob, you're on the wit Sundays heading to beef, so I'll let you get on with that caravan trip and, um, yeah, I'm sure I'm jealous of everyone being at beef, but I won't get there this year. But yeah, thanks very much for your time, mate, and all the best with pregnant.

Speaker 3: 30:38

It's a great product having great impact across the industry thanks for uh appreciate getting invite back onto um next gen.

Speaker 1: 30:46

Cheers mate thanks Heinegger, who are proud world leaders in the manufacturing and supply of professional sheep shearing and clipping equipment. Thank you to MNSD Animal Health and Norflex Livestock Intelligence. They offer an extensive livestock product portfolio focused on animal health management, all backed up by exceptional service. We thank both of these companies for their ongoing support of the Head Shippen podcast.